Bonikbarta Exclusive

Dr. Naomi Hossain is a Global Research Professor in the Department of Development Studies at SOAS University of London. She is Bangladeshi-Irish and has lived in Bangladesh, Indonesia, the UK and the US. She previously worked at the Research and Evaluation Division of BRAC, the world’s largest NGO; the Institute of Development Studies at Sussex University; and at the Accountability Research Center at American University in Washington DC. She recently spoke to Bonik Barta on 5 August, one of the glorious events after independence. Interviewed by Sabidin Ibrahim

With Dr. Yunus as the head of state, can we expect a changing scenario on a global level regarding Bangladesh?

Yes, I hope so. He is a recognizable name, a positive force. From that perspective, he was a very good choice as the interim government leader. But we have to do so much more. We have to invest in telling our story to the world; this is my feeling. I mean, that is the job of people like me, I know that. But, we are very few. If we look at American and European university departments, there are very few Bangladeshis, and almost all of them are in economics. Hardly any historians, hardly any people in literature and the arts—very few. And those people work very, very hard, but there are only a few. So how do we tell stories about Bangladesh which are not just about economic growth, climate change, and those issues? We have to find a way. We have to invest.

How can we elevate Bangladesh on the global stage?

I’ve actually written about this before. I think Bangladeshi cultural talent is unbelievable. Unbelievable! Even just the graphic art—I go on Instagram and look at the art that young people are producing. Unbelievable! During the revolution, we saw funny, beautiful, really clever, just the highest quality. Bangladeshi literature, as we know, is amazing, fantastic. Music, theater, or whatever we want to talk about, it’s fantastic. But it does not go beyond Bangladesh, maybe a little bit into West Bengal. So how are we telling our stories to the world? This, for me, is a big question. We must invest, I think. Artificial intelligence is coming to take over so many jobs. In that context, we should really invest in the creative industries. This is my feeling. We need an arts revolution, a cultural revolution in Bangladesh, where we truly invest in our cultural talents, which are amazing. Young people are so impressive. And I think that will gradually change the image of Bangladesh. People do not want to hear statistics, economic growth, or poverty reduction. That does not tell a story. Stories are about real people, real lives. This is where I think the future lies.

How do you view the youth in Bangladesh, especially Gen Z? And considering how they have shaped political events in the last few months, what are your thoughts on this generation?

Gen Z is really impressive. I spend quite a lot of time in Bangladesh working with young researchers. Earlier this year, I was fortunate enough to visit Dhaka University and Jahangirnagar University to speak with students there. I am also an adviser to the Youth Policy Forum in Bangladesh, a tremendous organization. I worked with them earlier in the year, and they were very impressively trying to push for policy change under the nearly impossible situation of Sheikh Hasina’s Awami League regime.

I’ve met quite a lot of Gen Z individuals in the last couple of years, and I was deeply impressed. Despite the difficult situation in Bangladesh, I always came away feeling hopeful that change would come. I could not have anticipated this particular form of change, though we had seen many student protests before. To be honest, I would not have wished for this. The violence was atrocious. It has, in many ways, destroyed the trust of the Bangladeshi people in the police and perhaps the army as well, or at least damaged it. And, of course, it has damaged the trust in what was, for many years, the main political party, or one of the two main political parties.

That is a real problem because you cannot have a democracy with just one political party or one major party and one smaller one. It does not work; you need a real opposition. So it should not have unfolded this way, but it did, and it was tremendous. The student movement, the anti-discrimination movement, was very thoughtful and well-organized. I think they learned a lot by observing what was happening around them and by studying previous movements and revolutions. It was not accidental that it happened this way.

If we step back and look at this historically and structurally, we can learn a few things. There has been a lot of discussion about the specific events of August 5, but if we take a broader view, we notice an almost 15-year cycle in Bangladesh’s political history. Look at 1954, then 1969 when Ayub Khan was toppled, then after 1975, again in 1991 when a military regime was brought down, and then 2006. Now, in 2024, it has happened again. So what does this tell us?

Political sociologists often describe Bangladesh as a classic case of a weak state in a strong society. That means governments may try to dominate and amass more power, but at some point, it becomes unsustainable. People become fed up, and the costs of repression—like enforced disappearances, jail time for Facebook posts, and the general atmosphere of fear—become too high. It becomes clear that you cannot sustain that kind of political domination in Bangladesh over the long term.

When the Awami League was in power, they thought they could deliver development and growth without democracy, without accountability. But the Awami League was not the Chinese Communist Party. They wanted to be, but they never were. Bangladesh is still a weak state, even though it became stronger under the Awami League. The society, however, remains relatively strong.

There are big lessons here. Maybe if we have a more democratic state in the future, it could hold power for more than 15 years. We will see if people have the space. But democracy is hard. Democracy is hard work.

What are the pillars of a strong state? Is it sometimes perceived as a fearful state due to its powerful machinery? How can we build a strong, functional state without instilling fear?

There are many things we must address here. One fundamental aspect is that a state must be accountable to its citizens. Without accountability, a state can never truly be legitimate. People will not respect it or follow its rules. The use of force is actually a sign of a weak state. When a government cannot convince its people to agree with its policies or follow the rules it sets, that reflects weakness, not strength.

Several elements are crucial, including a transparent tax system. Citizens need to know that when they pay taxes, the funds are not going towards enriching the elite but are being used for the public good. A fair legal process is also essential. It is not just about political parties rotating power; it is about building institutions that ensure fairness and justice. People need to feel that when they encounter problems, they can go to their local government, municipal authorities, or ward councils and have their issues addressed fairly, with their rights respected. These elements collectively contribute to the foundation of a strong state.

However, as I mentioned before, democracy is hard. It requires powerful individuals to give up some of their power, and even the middle class must be willing to cede some power. There are many working-class people whose voices are not heard, who have no rights, because they are not the ones leading protests at Dhaka University or elsewhere. Who is listening to them? These are critical considerations when thinking about building a strong state.

Is a strong state beneficial? Yes, I believe it is because we need to tackle enormous challenges. We must address climate change, navigate a global economic system to which Bangladesh is particularly vulnerable, resolve internal issues, and manage relations with an unfriendly neighbor. These are significant problems, but the true strength of a state lies in how accountable it is to its people.

Political settlement has become a buzzword. What is the process ahead in maintaining a new political settlement?

If we are to establish a new political settlement, it must be more than simply swapping the BNP for the Awami League or any other party. It is not just about political parties. Political power in Bangladesh must be distributed more broadly and more equitably throughout society. Power needs to be dispersed, and there are ways to achieve this. Other countries have done so successfully. Some of the best examples for Bangladesh may come from Latin America or some of the more successful innovations in India.

One important innovation for Bangladesh is the establishment of citizen-led institutions. This is something we must introduce. In fact, our laws and constitution already include provisions for people to be heard at the local level, with frameworks for public participation in decision-making. However, these provisions are not being fully utilized; they are more symbolic, like decorative ornaments rather than functional systems. We need citizen committees at multiple levels of government, particularly in different sectors such as the power sector, where democratic oversight is crucial.

This oversight should not be limited to political parties or parliamentary committees; it should include independent citizen groups who can provide input on energy policy. Energy is a critical issue for Bangladesh and the world, and if we are to ensure a fair and corruption-free energy transition, these citizen-led mechanisms must be in place. Implementing such a system at all levels can help prevent the creeping rise of authoritarianism.

My vision for a political settlement is one in which power is distributed much more widely across all sectors of society. But again, this is not an easy task.

The interim government under Dr. Yunus’ leadership has been in place for almost a month. Is it the right time to comment on his tenure, and what should be the priorities of the interim government in these initial months?

It is still very early, and we must recognize the difficult situation they have inherited. We should be deeply grateful to all the individuals who have stepped forward, many of whom have come out of retirement. They do not seek to run the country, they have their own organizations and careers, so we owe them our gratitude.

This situation is, in many ways, not like the caretaker government of 2007-08. The Awami League, under Sheikh Hasina, fused the party with the state. How do you separate these institutions—the bureaucracy, the military, the police, the legal system, civil society, and even the media? It is a highly challenging situation.

That being said, two main issues should be addressed at this early stage. First, it would be helpful for the people of Bangladesh to understand the principles and rules guiding the interim government’s actions. We know the constitutional basis is unclear, but principles can still be drawn from the constitution and political practices. How should this government operate?

Second, the process is critical. Who should be consulted? Who should be in the room when decisions are made? It should not just be students, although they are important. I believe the students themselves would agree that a broad cross-section of society must be involved. I have continually noted the lack of involvement of labor organizations and trade unions in these discussions. These groups are the backbone of the country, including farmers, and they must be listened to. How are they being included in this process?

So, principles and process are the foundation. Once these are established, we can discuss the tenure and work plans of the interim government. But first, we need to understand the basis on which all of this is happening.

People are tense, and with political instability, the economy is strained. How can this interim government provide quick relief to those in need across the country?

It is indeed a very difficult situation. While it may be unpopular to say, the Awami League government did implement several important reforms, particularly for those living in poverty in rural areas. We now have a reasonably well-distributed social protection framework, although in practice, there has been significant politicization of the system.

One area where relief could be expanded is through mobile financial services, such as Bkash, which were used to distribute cash during COVID-19. This approach could be scaled up to ensure that people suffering from the cost of living crisis and inflation are supported. Inflation remains high in Bangladesh, and people are struggling with rising costs for food, energy, housing, and education. Every time I visit Bangladesh, I am shocked by how expensive everything is.

Providing this kind of relief requires a transparent and accountable framework. People must have a way to claim their rights and hold someone accountable if they do not receive them. This should be a priority because if people are not eating well or are worried about their livelihoods, it will destabilize any government, including this one.

Around 85 million of Bangladesh’s population is youth, in or under 26 years of age. The term ‘Demographic Dividend’ is often mentioned in this context. How can education and health be prioritized to empower the youth, turning them into assets for the nation and advancing the economy?

Absolutely, education must be the top priority. Bangladesh invests one of the smallest shares of its GDP in education globally. In fact, many poorer countries spend more on education than we do. Unfortunately, there has been a gradual privatization of education in Bangladesh, not just at the university level but also in basic education level. More and more families are enrolling their children in private schools like kindergartens and cadet schools because the public system is failing to deliver.

The government needs to invest in public education because that is where the majority of children start their schooling. Increasing spending is one aspect, but it is equally important to spend wisely. It is not just about how much money is spent; it is about how it is used. There were efforts in the last government to reform the curriculum, but those policies were not developed through a proper process. Parents, students, teachers, and education experts were not consulted. Reversing the reform may not be the best solution either. What we need is meaningful reform that moves away from outdated methods like memorization and excessive exams, which are not conducive to effective learning.

We also need to think about the kind of economy Bangladesh can have. Our only true natural resource is our people. If we are going to compete globally, the average education level must be significantly higher. Research by Niaz Asadullah, a brilliant scholar, has shown that many students leave even Class 8 without being able to read and write properly in Bangla, let alone English, or perform basic math. How can we compete globally under these conditions? It is impossible.

As for health care, we saw how vulnerable we were during COVID-19. Fortunately, it was not as bad as it could have been, but we must invest in the health care system to protect against future public health crises. We also need to ensure that people have access to the health services they require. Rural people, in particular, spend a lot of money on health crises they should not have to bear, as the government should be providing these essential services.

A large portion of Bangladesh’s export volume comes from the ready-made garments (RMG) sector. If we are to diversify our economy, we need to diversify our export items and attract foreign investment and FDI. What is your perspective on the prospects of Bangladesh attracting foreign investment and FDI?

Foreign investment and FDI are undoubtedly important, but we must also consider how to move up the value chain. While the RMG sector is still improving, we largely produce basic products. If you look at Vietnam, they entered the RMG sector around 20 years after Bangladesh, but they have moved up the value chain by producing high-value products and earning higher incomes from it. In contrast, we are still reliant on a cheap labor model.

The first step for us is to move away from this cheap labor approach to our economy. We need to invest in the skills of workers. This also means that workers must have rights; they need to be protected, paid fairly, and have the right to wage increases in line with inflation. Workers should not have to resort to protests every time. All of these factors are essential if we are to move up the value chain, even within the garments sector.

To diversify beyond RMG, we again need a skilled labor force. There is no substitute for that. This requires investment not only in tertiary education and vocational skills but also in basic education. Without this foundation, I do not believe we can truly diversify. However, it is possible. Bangladesh has achieved similar transformations before, and we can certainly move beyond RMG, but we must also focus on moving up the value chain within the sector.

The interim government assumed responsibility during a crisis. What criteria would indicate that this interim government has been successful? What are the minimum political, social, and economic targets they should achieve to be considered minimally successful?

At a minimum, the interim government needs to hold free and fair elections and transfer power to the elected representatives. However, many believe that this alone is not sufficient. There is also considerable discussion about the need for constitutional reform, which is a substantial undertaking. It is worth noting that while Bangladeshis often express faith in rules, adherence to these rules has been inconsistent in the past.

Success for the interim government would involve distributing political power more broadly, beyond just political parties and parliament. This should include local governments and citizen involvement independent of the state structure, allowing them to serve as checks and balances.

Economically, successfully navigating this challenging period would be a significant achievement. However, substantial reforms are necessary to prevent the type of grand corruption witnessed previously. There must be radical transparency, especially in sectors like energy and finance. The avoidance of large-scale financial misappropriation, such as the mismanagement of substantial bank loans, is crucial.

While it may be overly ambitious to expect an interim government to achieve all these goals within one, two, or even three years, laying the groundwork for future progress is a reasonable expectation. It is indeed a considerable challenge for an interim government.

Transcripted by Minhazul Abedin