Dr. Naomi Hossain is a Global Research
Professor in the Department of Development Studies at SOAS University of
London. She is Bangladeshi-Irish and has lived in Bangladesh, Indonesia, the UK
and the US. She previously worked at the Research and Evaluation Division of
BRAC, the world’s largest NGO; the Institute of Development Studies at Sussex
University; and at the Accountability Research Center at American University in
Washington DC. She recently spoke to Bonik Barta on 5 August, one of the glorious
events after independence. Interviewed by Sabidin
Ibrahim
With Dr. Yunus as the
head of state, can we expect a changing scenario on a global level regarding
Bangladesh?
Yes,
I hope so. He is a recognizable name, a positive force. From that perspective,
he was a very good choice as the interim government leader. But we have to do
so much more. We have to invest in telling our story to the world; this is my
feeling. I mean, that is the job of people like me, I know that. But, we are
very few. If we look at American and European university departments, there are
very few Bangladeshis, and almost all of them are in economics. Hardly any
historians, hardly any people in literature and the arts—very few. And those
people work very, very hard, but there are only a few. So how do we tell
stories about Bangladesh which are not just about economic growth, climate
change, and those issues? We have to find a way. We have to invest.
How can we elevate
Bangladesh on the global stage?
I’ve
actually written about this before. I think Bangladeshi cultural talent is
unbelievable. Unbelievable! Even just the graphic art—I go on Instagram and
look at the art that young people are producing. Unbelievable! During the
revolution, we saw funny, beautiful, really clever, just the highest quality.
Bangladeshi literature, as we know, is amazing, fantastic. Music, theater, or whatever
we want to talk about, it’s fantastic. But it does not go beyond Bangladesh,
maybe a little bit into West Bengal. So how are we telling our stories to the
world? This, for me, is a big question. We must invest, I think. Artificial
intelligence is coming to take over so many jobs. In that context, we should
really invest in the creative industries. This is my feeling. We need an arts
revolution, a cultural revolution in Bangladesh, where we truly invest in our
cultural talents, which are amazing. Young people are so impressive. And I
think that will gradually change the image of Bangladesh. People do not want to
hear statistics, economic growth, or poverty reduction. That does not tell a
story. Stories are about real people, real lives. This is where I think the
future lies.
How do you view the
youth in Bangladesh, especially Gen Z? And considering how they have shaped
political events in the last few months, what are your thoughts on this
generation?
Gen
Z is really impressive. I spend quite a lot of time in Bangladesh working with
young researchers. Earlier this year, I was fortunate enough to visit Dhaka
University and Jahangirnagar University to speak with students there. I am also
an adviser to the Youth Policy Forum in Bangladesh, a tremendous organization.
I worked with them earlier in the year, and they were very impressively trying
to push for policy change under the nearly impossible situation of Sheikh
Hasina’s Awami League regime.
I’ve
met quite a lot of Gen Z individuals in the last couple of years, and I was
deeply impressed. Despite the difficult situation in Bangladesh, I always came
away feeling hopeful that change would come. I could not have anticipated this
particular form of change, though we had seen many student protests before. To
be honest, I would not have wished for this. The violence was atrocious. It
has, in many ways, destroyed the trust of the Bangladeshi people in the police
and perhaps the army as well, or at least damaged it. And, of course, it has damaged
the trust in what was, for many years, the main political party, or one of the
two main political parties.
That
is a real problem because you cannot have a democracy with just one political
party or one major party and one smaller one. It does not work; you need a real
opposition. So it should not have unfolded this way, but it did, and it was
tremendous. The student movement, the anti-discrimination movement, was very
thoughtful and well-organized. I think they learned a lot by observing what was
happening around them and by studying previous movements and revolutions. It
was not accidental that it happened this way.
If
we step back and look at this historically and structurally, we can learn a few
things. There has been a lot of discussion about the specific events of August
5, but if we take a broader view, we notice an almost 15-year cycle in
Bangladesh’s political history. Look at 1954, then 1969 when Ayub Khan was
toppled, then after 1975, again in 1991 when a military regime was brought
down, and then 2006. Now, in 2024, it has happened again. So what does this
tell us?
Political
sociologists often describe Bangladesh as a classic case of a weak state in a
strong society. That means governments may try to dominate and amass more
power, but at some point, it becomes unsustainable. People become fed up, and
the costs of repression—like enforced disappearances, jail time for Facebook
posts, and the general atmosphere of fear—become too high. It becomes clear
that you cannot sustain that kind of political domination in Bangladesh over
the long term.
When
the Awami League was in power, they thought they could deliver development and
growth without democracy, without accountability. But the Awami League was not
the Chinese Communist Party. They wanted to be, but they never were. Bangladesh
is still a weak state, even though it became stronger under the Awami League.
The society, however, remains relatively strong.
There
are big lessons here. Maybe if we have a more democratic state in the future,
it could hold power for more than 15 years. We will see if people have the
space. But democracy is hard. Democracy is hard work.
What are the pillars of
a strong state? Is it sometimes perceived as a fearful state due to its
powerful machinery? How can we build a strong, functional state without
instilling fear?
There
are many things we must address here. One fundamental aspect is that a state
must be accountable to its citizens. Without accountability, a state can never
truly be legitimate. People will not respect it or follow its rules. The use of
force is actually a sign of a weak state. When a government cannot convince its
people to agree with its policies or follow the rules it sets, that reflects
weakness, not strength.
Several
elements are crucial, including a transparent tax system. Citizens need to know
that when they pay taxes, the funds are not going towards enriching the elite
but are being used for the public good. A fair legal process is also essential.
It is not just about political parties rotating power; it is about building
institutions that ensure fairness and justice. People need to feel that when
they encounter problems, they can go to their local government, municipal
authorities, or ward councils and have their issues addressed fairly, with
their rights respected. These elements collectively contribute to the
foundation of a strong state.
However,
as I mentioned before, democracy is hard. It requires powerful individuals to give
up some of their power, and even the middle class must be willing to cede some
power. There are many working-class people whose voices are not heard, who have
no rights, because they are not the ones leading protests at Dhaka University
or elsewhere. Who is listening to them? These are critical considerations when
thinking about building a strong state.
Is
a strong state beneficial? Yes, I believe it is because we need to tackle
enormous challenges. We must address climate change, navigate a global economic
system to which Bangladesh is particularly vulnerable, resolve internal issues,
and manage relations with an unfriendly neighbor. These are significant problems,
but the true strength of a state lies in how accountable it is to its people.
Political settlement
has become a buzzword. What is the process ahead in maintaining a new political
settlement?
If
we are to establish a new political settlement, it must be more than simply
swapping the BNP for the Awami League or any other party. It is not just about
political parties. Political power in Bangladesh must be distributed more
broadly and more equitably throughout society. Power needs to be dispersed, and
there are ways to achieve this. Other countries have done so successfully. Some
of the best examples for Bangladesh may come from Latin America or some of the
more successful innovations in India.
One
important innovation for Bangladesh is the establishment of citizen-led
institutions. This is something we must introduce. In fact, our laws and
constitution already include provisions for people to be heard at the local
level, with frameworks for public participation in decision-making. However,
these provisions are not being fully utilized; they are more symbolic, like
decorative ornaments rather than functional systems. We need citizen committees
at multiple levels of government, particularly in different sectors such as the
power sector, where democratic oversight is crucial.
This
oversight should not be limited to political parties or parliamentary
committees; it should include independent citizen groups who can provide input
on energy policy. Energy is a critical issue for Bangladesh and the world, and
if we are to ensure a fair and corruption-free energy transition, these
citizen-led mechanisms must be in place. Implementing such a system at all
levels can help prevent the creeping rise of authoritarianism.
My
vision for a political settlement is one in which power is distributed much
more widely across all sectors of society. But again, this is not an easy task.
The interim government
under Dr. Yunus’ leadership has been in place for almost a month. Is it the
right time to comment on his tenure, and what should be the priorities of the
interim government in these initial months?
It
is still very early, and we must recognize the difficult situation they have
inherited. We should be deeply grateful to all the individuals who have stepped
forward, many of whom have come out of retirement. They do not seek to run the
country, they have their own organizations and careers, so we owe them our
gratitude.
This
situation is, in many ways, not like the caretaker government of 2007-08. The
Awami League, under Sheikh Hasina, fused the party with the state. How do you separate
these institutions—the bureaucracy, the military, the police, the legal system,
civil society, and even the media? It is a highly challenging situation.
That
being said, two main issues should be addressed at this early stage. First, it
would be helpful for the people of Bangladesh to understand the principles and
rules guiding the interim government’s actions. We know the constitutional
basis is unclear, but principles can still be drawn from the constitution and
political practices. How should this government operate?
Second,
the process is critical. Who should be consulted? Who should be in the room
when decisions are made? It should not just be students, although they are
important. I believe the students themselves would agree that a broad
cross-section of society must be involved. I have continually noted the lack of
involvement of labor organizations and trade unions in these discussions. These
groups are the backbone of the country, including farmers, and they must be
listened to. How are they being included in this process?
So,
principles and process are the foundation. Once these are established, we can
discuss the tenure and work plans of the interim government. But first, we need
to understand the basis on which all of this is happening.
People are tense, and
with political instability, the economy is strained. How can this interim
government provide quick relief to those in need across the country?
It
is indeed a very difficult situation. While it may be unpopular to say, the
Awami League government did implement several important reforms, particularly
for those living in poverty in rural areas. We now have a reasonably
well-distributed social protection framework, although in practice, there has
been significant politicization of the system.
One area where relief could be
expanded is through mobile financial services, such as Bkash, which were used
to distribute cash during COVID-19. This approach could be
scaled up to ensure that people suffering from the cost of living crisis and
inflation are supported. Inflation remains high in Bangladesh, and people are
struggling with rising costs for food, energy, housing, and education. Every
time I visit Bangladesh, I am shocked by how expensive everything is.
Providing
this kind of relief requires a transparent and accountable framework. People
must have a way to claim their rights and hold someone accountable if they do
not receive them. This should be a priority because if people are not eating
well or are worried about their livelihoods, it will destabilize any
government, including this one.
Around 85 million of
Bangladesh’s population is youth, in or under 26 years of age. The term
‘Demographic Dividend’ is often mentioned in this context. How can education
and health be prioritized to empower the youth, turning them into assets for
the nation and advancing the economy?
Absolutely,
education must be the top priority. Bangladesh invests one of the smallest
shares of its GDP in education globally. In fact, many poorer countries spend
more on education than we do. Unfortunately, there has been a gradual
privatization of education in Bangladesh, not just at the university level but
also in basic education level. More and more families are enrolling their
children in private schools like kindergartens and cadet schools because the
public system is failing to deliver.
The
government needs to invest in public education because that is where the
majority of children start their schooling. Increasing spending is one aspect,
but it is equally important to spend wisely. It is not just about how much
money is spent; it is about how it is used. There were efforts in the last
government to reform the curriculum, but those policies were not developed through
a proper process. Parents, students, teachers, and education experts were not
consulted. Reversing the reform may not be the best solution either. What we
need is meaningful reform that moves away from outdated methods like
memorization and excessive exams, which are not conducive to effective
learning.
We
also need to think about the kind of economy Bangladesh can have. Our only true
natural resource is our people. If we are going to compete globally, the
average education level must be significantly higher. Research by Niaz
Asadullah, a brilliant scholar, has shown that many students leave even Class 8
without being able to read and write properly in Bangla, let alone English, or
perform basic math. How can we compete globally under these conditions? It is
impossible.
As
for health care, we saw how vulnerable we were during COVID-19. Fortunately, it
was not as bad as it could have been, but we must invest in the health care
system to protect against future public health crises. We also need to ensure
that people have access to the health services they require. Rural people, in
particular, spend a lot of money on health crises they should not have to bear,
as the government should be providing these essential services.
A large portion of
Bangladesh’s export volume comes from the ready-made garments (RMG) sector. If
we are to diversify our economy, we need to diversify our export items and
attract foreign investment and FDI. What is your perspective on the prospects
of Bangladesh attracting foreign investment and FDI?
Foreign
investment and FDI are undoubtedly important, but we must also consider how to
move up the value chain. While the RMG sector is still improving, we largely
produce basic products. If you look at Vietnam, they entered the RMG sector around
20 years after Bangladesh, but they have moved up the value chain by producing
high-value products and earning higher incomes from it. In contrast, we are
still reliant on a cheap labor model.
The
first step for us is to move away from this cheap labor approach to our
economy. We need to invest in the skills of workers. This also means that
workers must have rights; they need to be protected, paid fairly, and have the
right to wage increases in line with inflation. Workers should not have to
resort to protests every time. All of these factors are essential if we are to
move up the value chain, even within the garments sector.
To
diversify beyond RMG, we again need a skilled labor force. There is no
substitute for that. This requires investment not only in tertiary education
and vocational skills but also in basic education. Without this foundation, I
do not believe we can truly diversify. However, it is possible. Bangladesh has
achieved similar transformations before, and we can certainly move beyond RMG,
but we must also focus on moving up the value chain within the sector.
The interim government
assumed responsibility during a crisis. What criteria would indicate that this
interim government has been successful? What are the minimum political, social,
and economic targets they should achieve to be considered minimally successful?
At
a minimum, the interim government needs to hold free and fair elections and
transfer power to the elected representatives. However, many believe that this
alone is not sufficient. There is also considerable discussion about the need
for constitutional reform, which is a substantial undertaking. It is worth
noting that while Bangladeshis often express faith in rules, adherence to these
rules has been inconsistent in the past.
Success
for the interim government would involve distributing political power more
broadly, beyond just political parties and parliament. This should include
local governments and citizen involvement independent of the state structure,
allowing them to serve as checks and balances.
Economically,
successfully navigating this challenging period would be a significant
achievement. However, substantial reforms are necessary to prevent the type of
grand corruption witnessed previously. There must be radical transparency,
especially in sectors like energy and finance. The avoidance of large-scale
financial misappropriation, such as the mismanagement of substantial bank
loans, is crucial.
While
it may be overly ambitious to expect an interim government to achieve all these
goals within one, two, or even three years, laying the groundwork for future
progress is a reasonable expectation. It is indeed a considerable challenge for
an interim government.
Transcripted by Minhazul Abedin